Nightwish: Metal or Non-metal?

The debate continues, in non-Fagbook fashion.

Is Nightwish really a metal band?

My answer is a big fat "NO." They are not even close to a metal band.

They have characteristics of metal, sure, but so do bajillions of other bands we wouldn't even dare THINK about calling metal. "Metal" does not simply describe the sound of a band. No, it is much more meaningful than that. This is why metal is so special and different than other forms of music.

________________________________________________________

So, here I go off on a rant which I've been holding in for a while.

Metal music is the ultimate expression of musical art. In no otehr genre of music can you find such diversity, or such a wide range of subjects and emotions. No other genre of modern music has such a history as metal has had. Every one of us, if we're not a complete metal "n00b," has an idea of what has happened in the past, and likes at least one album from "back in the day." Ask a pop music fan or a "casual" music listener about their favorite album from the 80s. More likely than not, they won't even know one album, and even if they do, it is probably extremely popular.

Metal is not pop music with a 6-month life-span. If an album is groundbreaking, and of course if it gets popular enough for most metal fans to hear it, it will never be forgotten. Such albums include Sabbath's Master of Reality or Judas Priest's Painkiller. Even today, I am still discovering bands from long ago, which never gained an ounce of popularity. Metal is an underground form of music, and the best bands will never be mainstream simply because it is the complete opposite of what corporate douchebags or "clubbers" want to hear.

No other genre has the spirit, the passion, or the dedication to the music as heavy metal fans do. I'm sure for all of us that heavy metal music influences our everyday life, even subconsciously.

Now, this leads me to my next point:

Some bands are metal, some bands are not. Some people just cannot grasp that fact. Lets look at a few things that make a band "metal."

• An attitude of advancement or rebellion.
  
• Seeking to find meaning in a world of chaos
  
• Advancement in a musical perspective
  
• A following in the footsteps of innovators before them, and doing it well.
  
• A driving force behind the music, whether it be a beat, a riff, an ambiance, whatever.

Heavy metal doesn't have to include distorted guitars or a drumkit. Metal can include anything, but it has to have that gut feeling of "metal" whan you listen to it. It has to take your mind to another world.

"Joke" or "parody" bands are rarely considered metal in my book, save for a couple of bands who do it sarcastically.

________________________________________________

So, Nightwish. Metal or nonmetal? They strike me more as symphonic rock than anything, but they most certainly are not metal. Plus, they are a pointless band who has furthered metal in the wrong direction by calling themselves "power metal" and influencing other bands to do the same, not to mention their music stinks.

Going by my sense of what metal is, symphonic rock sounds a lot more appropriate than symphonic metal. At least for what I've heard by Nightwish.

I voted the third option.

Rant? Essay is more appropriate. LOL

Not listened to them enough to form an opinion though.

Master Cthulhu wrote:

Metal music is the ultimate expression of musical art. In no otehr genre of music can you find such diversity, or such a wide range of subjects and emotions.

Metal is very diverse, but if you sit down and take the time to listen to other genres you will find that they are quite diverse as well. Unwillingly I have sat through my little sisters pop for a few years, and I find that they have the same favorite genre, but that genre has different styles in their genre. Depends.
There are so many different types of metal out there, some you may like, some you may not; some that, a morjority you hate but may find a band or two within very entertaining. (In your case Symphonic/Power metal Nightwish is a no.)

Quote :

Metal is an underground form of music, and the best bands will never be mainstream simply because it is the complete opposite of what corporate douchebags or "clubbers" want to hear.

Untrue, there are plenty of people out there who can enjoy a good hyped band. Like Slipknot and Korn, I personally don't find them to be good, but a ton of other people do. They are in fact metal... Nu Metal. Which, a lot of people don't like but will have to accept, is metal.

Quote :

Some bands are metal, some bands are not. Some people just cannot grasp that fact. Lets look at a few things that make a band "metal."

From what I learned metal is a sub-genre of rock.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_music

Quote :

Heavy metal doesn't have to include distorted guitars or a drumkit. Metal can include anything, but it has to have that gut feeling of "metal" whan you listen to it. It has to take your mind to another world.

Everyone has a different gut feeling for different styles of metal. Different forms of metal have different sounds, sometimes similar or something very very different.

Quote :

"Joke" or "parody" bands are rarely considered metal in my book, save for a couple of bands who do it sarcastically.

Or perhaps their lyrical theme could be a parody of metal?

Quote :

So, Nightwish. Metal or nonmetal? They strike me more as symphonic rock than anything, but they most certainly are not metal. Plus, they are a pointless band who has furthered metal in the wrong direction by calling themselves "power metal" and influencing other bands to do the same, not to mention their music stinks.

Sorry to bust your balls... but... http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=39 && vvvvvvvvvvvv

Senrae wrote:

From what I learned metal is a sub-genre of rock.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_music

((Though I do realize that these are alll just opinions. ))

Metal? I guess, fuck if I know. Do they suck? Most definitely.

I mean they are widely regarded as metal. Link says they aren't metal in his attempts to piss me off (for whatever reason), but there really is no basis for saying that they aren't other than "they don't sound good to me"

At least that's my opinion.

Senrae wrote:

Master Cthulhu wrote:

Metal music is the ultimate expression of musical art. In no otehr genre of music can you find such diversity, or such a wide range of subjects and emotions.

Metal is very diverse, but if you sit down and take the time to listen to other genres you will find that they are quite diverse as well. Unwillingly I have sat through my little sisters pop for a few years, and I find that they have the same favorite genre, but that genre has different styles in their genre. Depends.
There are so many different types of metal out there, some you may like, some you may not; some that, a morjority you hate but may find a band or two within very entertaining. (In your case Symphonic/Power metal Nightwish is a no.)

Quote :

Metal is an underground form of music, and the best bands will never be mainstream simply because it is the complete opposite of what corporate douchebags or "clubbers" want to hear.

Untrue, there are plenty of people out there who can enjoy a good hyped band. Like Slipknot and Korn, I personally don't find them to be good, but a ton of other people do. They are in fact metal... Nu Metal. Which, a lot of people don't like but will have to accept, is metal.

Quote :

Some bands are metal, some bands are not. Some people just cannot grasp that fact. Lets look at a few things that make a band "metal."

From what I learned metal is a sub-genre of rock.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_music

Quote :

Heavy metal doesn't have to include distorted guitars or a drumkit. Metal can include anything, but it has to have that gut feeling of "metal" whan you listen to it. It has to take your mind to another world.

Everyone has a different gut feeling for different styles of metal. Different forms of metal have different sounds, sometimes similar or something very very different.

Quote :

"Joke" or "parody" bands are rarely considered metal in my book, save for a couple of bands who do it sarcastically.

Or perhaps their lyrical theme could be a parody of metal?

Quote :

So, Nightwish. Metal or nonmetal? They strike me more as symphonic rock than anything, but they most certainly are not metal. Plus, they are a pointless band who has furthered metal in the wrong direction by calling themselves "power metal" and influencing other bands to do the same, not to mention their music stinks.

Sorry to bust your balls... but... http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=39 && vvvvvvvvvvvv

Senrae wrote:

From what I learned metal is a sub-genre of rock.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_music

((Though I do realize that these are alll just opinions. ))

Nu Metal isn't metal because it lacks certain things that metal usually needs, like riffs. Also, I would say metal is a genre in and of itself because all it really ha sin common with rock are the instruments.

I agree, metal has separated itself from rock music. But some Nightwish songs sound less metal than others, but can you honestly say this does not have a heavy metal riff?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALpe2uHHLVY&feature=related

Metal evolved out of rock, but that doesn't make it a subgenre of it. Rock evolved from blues and African American music, does that make it a subgenre of those?

And I'm sigging that Taxer, I lol'd.

Axe wrote:

I agree, metal has separated itself from rock music. But some Nightwish songs sound less metal than others, but can you honestly say this does not have a heavy metal riff?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALpe2uHHLVY&feature=related

Older stuff sounded metal, looked up some newer shit and I was a bit iffy on it.

The first 20 seconds of this song have nothing to do with metal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFJIBtqunHY&feature=related

And afterwords there are no riffs to be found.

Their newer stuff is a lot less so. It adds much more gothic elements to the music, and slower tempos. There are still some heavier sounding songs on the newer albums

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVYEVYnuuME

I mean, they aren't a heavy band, but you know what I mean. Heavier than some of their songs that barely have any guitars lol

Taxer666 wrote:

Senrae wrote:

Nu Metal isn't metal because it lacks certain things that metal usually needs, like riffs. Also, I would say metal is a genre in and of itself because all it really ha sin common with rock are the instruments.

Nu-Metal is most certainly metal! Majority of what I heard me thinks is terrible but it's still good. Maybe this lack of rifts is why most metal fans don't like it?
&& I was just saying what I learned... metal being a subgenre of rock from another forum and used wiki as an example. XD

A new singer is like a new instrument which has a major effect on how a band can sound. Me no likes new Nightwish. Tarja sounded better.

Tarja sounded infinitely better.

VacuousReality wrote:

The first 20 seconds of this song have nothing to do with metal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFJIBtqunHY&feature=related

And afterwords there are no riffs to be found.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_7vFI302Sw

Just because something has blast beats and other shit doesn't make it metal.

I adore this song but I think that misheard lyrics are funny. XD

Senrae wrote:

Taxer666 wrote:

Senrae wrote:

Nu Metal isn't metal because it lacks certain things that metal usually needs, like riffs. Also, I would say metal is a genre in and of itself because all it really ha sin common with rock are the instruments.

Nu-Metal is most certainly metal! Majority of what I heard me thinks is terrible but it's still good. Maybe this lack of rifts is why most metal fans don't like it?
&& I was just saying what I learned... metal being a subgenre of rock from another forum and used wiki as an example. XD

Because wikipedia is the ultimate source of information. Besides, nu metal isn't metal due to structural things. Sure you can have some bands that sound more metal, but you have to remember that nu metal is just a blanket term that applies to the rap rock, groove, and other bullshit stuff. Kinda the same way hair metal applied to both Poison and Judas Priest back in the 80s.

Taxer666 wrote:

Senrae wrote:

Taxer666 wrote:

Senrae wrote:

Nu Metal isn't metal because it lacks certain things that metal usually needs, like riffs. Also, I would say metal is a genre in and of itself because all it really ha sin common with rock are the instruments.

Nu-Metal is most certainly metal! Majority of what I heard me thinks is terrible but it's still good. Maybe this lack of rifts is why most metal fans don't like it?
&& I was just saying what I learned... metal being a subgenre of rock from another forum and used wiki as an example. XD

Because wikipedia is the ultimate source or information. Besides, nu metal isn't metal due to structural things. Sure you can have some bands that sound more metal, but you have to remember that nu metal is just a blanket term that applies to the rap rock, groove, and other bullshit stuff. Kinda the same way hair metal applied to both Poison and Judas Priest back in the 80s.

*cannot find the words to try and prove to you that nu metal is sub-genre of metal*

UFhahfsuiaKNfjahgjkaf ak

Its definitely not opera. That's the next thing its close to.

Taxer666 wrote:

Senrae wrote:

Taxer666 wrote:

Senrae wrote:

Nu Metal isn't metal because it lacks certain things that metal usually needs, like riffs. Also, I would say metal is a genre in and of itself because all it really ha sin common with rock are the instruments.

Nu-Metal is most certainly metal! Majority of what I heard me thinks is terrible but it's still good. Maybe this lack of rifts is why most metal fans don't like it?
&& I was just saying what I learned... metal being a subgenre of rock from another forum and used wiki as an example. XD

Because wikipedia is the ultimate source of information. Besides, nu metal isn't metal due to structural things. Sure you can have some bands that sound more metal, but you have to remember that nu metal is just a blanket term that applies to the rap rock, groove, and other bullshit stuff. Kinda the same way hair metal applied to both Poison and Judas Priest back in the 80s.

I'll admit that this is one thing I agree with Taxer on. Nu metal is more hard rock with metal influences than a subgenre of metal.

I'm with Taxer. To me Nu metal is based on one thing: Terrible, boring riffs and it makes the music lame.

I remember what one man said: It's mind boggling how Nightwish can have some pretty good stuff on some albums, but have boring generic stuff on others. I do think they are metal (at least with some albums: ie Wishmaster and Once).

Regardless, Nightwish is symphonic/power metal. Nu-metal sucks ass, but I still think it should be considered metal. Regardless of how popularized and generic it is. But you cannot use the argument that it doesn't "sound" like metal, because nothing today sounds like the original metal black sabbath created all those years ago.

Axe wrote:

Regardless, Nightwish is symphonic/power metal. Nu-metal sucks ass, but I still think it should be considered metal. Regardless of how popularized and generic it is. But you cannot use the argument that it doesn't "sound" like metal, because nothing today sounds like the original metal black sabbath created all those years ago.

Sleep and most of stoner metal says hi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymsB9PD7Tto

Lol that kind of music is the only REAL metal, by that argument.

I suppose you're right, good Axe. I'm still not happy about the idea of Nu Metal. I'd rather listen to Manilla Road (which is awesome).

Blah blah blah!!

I guess it all comes down to opinion. :B
I loooked it up on wiki and it said subgenre of metal... looked it up other places and it said it's hard-rock... ahnd etcetctetcecTETCET

Axe wrote:

Lol that kind of music is the only REAL metal, by that argument.

uh, you basically interpreted my argument the exact opposite as intended.

I think I trolled enough. But I say they aren't metal. But really, who cares? Let people who hate them not waste their time on them.

Master Cthulhu wrote:

Axe wrote:

Lol that kind of music is the only REAL metal, by that argument.

uh, you basically interpreted my argument the exact opposite as intended.

Lol I just meant that if bands aren't metal if they don't have that metal feel, then the only metal bands are doom metal bands. And that is a valid argument.

Axe wrote:

I agree, metal has separated itself from rock music. But some Nightwish songs sound less metal than others, but can you honestly say this does not have a rock riff with basic rock beats over it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALpe2uHHLVY&feature=related

Returning the favor, douchequeer.

Plus, that riff, even if you say it's heavy metal, it's nowhere near, MAYBE glam.

Fuck Nightwish.


'Nuf said.

link wrote:

Axe wrote:

I agree, metal has separated itself from rock music. But some Nightwish songs sound less metal than others. Can you honestly say that generic tech death bands have more talent or soul than a unique genre inventor? I think not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALpe2uHHLVY&feature=related

Returning the favor, douchequeer.

Right back atcha!

Bloodbeast wrote:

Fuck Nightwish.


'Nuf said.

You like Cannibal Corpse

You like Billy Talent



LOLOLOLOLOL

Axe wrote:

Bloodbeast wrote:

Fuck Nightwish.


'Nuf said.

You like Cannibal Corpse

And you'd sodomize an Ensiferum CD without the god damn common courtesy of giving it a reach around.

What's with all the hate for Billy Talent?

And if I could have sex with an Ensiferum CD, I probably would. It provides me with ear sex, so might as well return the favor.

Whats with the hate for Cannibal Corpse?

Hey! No fair! I asked you first! lol

idk I don't really care for them. They're okay

Spoiler:

Friendly troll on billy talent bud.


But in truth, Billy Talent is turrible.

Axe wrote:

What's with all the hate for Billy Talent?

And if I could have sex with an Ensiferum CD, I probably would. It provides me with ear sex, so might as well return the favor.

So all those "ear infections" you get is actually because Petri doesn't have the common sense to pull out?

Bloodbeast wrote:

Axe wrote:

What's with all the hate for Billy Talent?

And if I could have sex with an Ensiferum CD, I probably would. It provides me with ear sex, so might as well return the favor.

So all those "ear infections" you get is actually because Petri doesn't have the common sense to pull out?

Tell me you like Ensiferum.... this is important. They are supposed to be the one band most everyone can agree on!

Axe wrote:

Hey! No fair! I asked you first! lol

idk I don't really care for them. They're okay

Spoiler:

No u! Or something like that lol. I love friendly trolling.

Petri came from norther.

Axe wrote:

Bloodbeast wrote:

Axe wrote:

What's with all the hate for Billy Talent?

And if I could have sex with an Ensiferum CD, I probably would. It provides me with ear sex, so might as well return the favor.

So all those "ear infections" you get is actually because Petri doesn't have the common sense to pull out?

Tell me you like Ensiferum.... this is important. They are supposed to be the one band most everyone can agree on!

I use to enjoy Ensiferum, but all over indulgence and praise and adoration most everyone expresses towards them has left me feeling malice towards them.

blackstar wrote:

Axe wrote:

Hey! No fair! I asked you first! lol

idk I don't really care for them. They're okay

Spoiler:

No me!

ho ho ho!

Bloodbeast wrote:

Axe wrote:

Bloodbeast wrote:

Axe wrote:

What's with all the hate for Billy Talent?

And if I could have sex with an Ensiferum CD, I probably would. It provides me with ear sex, so might as well return the favor.

So all those "ear infections" you get is actually because Petri doesn't have the common sense to pull out?

Tell me you like Ensiferum.... this is important. They are supposed to be the one band most everyone can agree on!

I use to enjoy Ensiferum, but all over indulgence and praise and adoration most everyone expresses towards them has left me feeling malice towards them.